Frequently Asked Questions and Answers.
We receive letters and e-mails regularly and the frequently asked questions we
are asked are very interesting. The replies below provide useful information and
are well worth reading.
FIXED DISH QUESTIONS
QUESTION F1
How much difference do low noise LNBs make and why do
some LNBs have a C120 flange and a feedhorn? Is there much difference
between the efficiency of different makes and types of dish?
AND,
How can I get more signal from my dish? Would a better LNB
help or a more sensitive receiver?
AND,
Problems with signal through trees.
AND,
Why does my lower noise LNB produce less signal?
ANSWER. F1
Dish size is everything. LNBs only have a very very very very .... small effect as does receiver
sensitivity. Dish size is everything! Going from a 0.9dB to a 0.3dB does not have the effect of
5mm of dish diameter! and then the lower noise LNB will only help in good weather, virtually no
effect in bad weather. Bigger dishes provide more signal in all weathers. BUT if the dish size
cannot be increased for any reason, the lower noise LNB can help a small amount and it MIGHT be
just enough to pull in a difficult to get channel that was just coming in but maybe pixilation or
freezing (a common fault caused usually by lack of signal).
0.2dB LNBs! To achieve 0.2dBs, manufacturers would need super cooling to slow the electrons down.
Simply not possible at room temperature. It may well be the case that the new 0.2dB LNBs have the
lowest noise figures. They are very good LNBs. Possibly even be the best, but they can't be 0.2dB.
I am getting old I guess. An old foggy! I can still remember - when I was a kid - back in the late
50s early 60s - not sure when - being told you could get a great picture on the TV with an aerial
shaped like a PLANT POT that could be stood on top of the TV. (even with a plastic plant inside it!)
We all know now that what was really needed was a decent sized aerial on the roof (and preferably
not in the loft - reflections!) Why? because no matter how much pressure you get from your partner
(careful now ... must not be sexist!) wanting technology without wires in sealed boxes (like my wife
.. too late .... shouldn't have mentioned women!) ... and they will insist on having the stuff in cabinets
with doors on. This is better known as an oven! It stops ventilation and creates a fire risks. AND .. they
want the smallest possible dish so you are told to "find an alternative solution to getting more
signal" BUT ... no matter how much people might want to .....
YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE LAWS OF PHYSICS! "Dish size is everthing." It is a question that we hear
every day and sometimes customer think that if they ask the question in 4 or 5 different ways, they
will get a different answer. To repeat - Dish size is everthing!
Dish efficiency.
This can be important. Especially among large dishes. The Channel Master 1.8m and 2.4m have a
very high gain due to good design. Offset is more efficient than prime focus if it is a specialist
well designed dish (not always true with smaller mass produced dishes). Webbed resin type plastic
is a perfect shape from leaving the factory to arriving at the customer. Metal petalised prime
focus dishes can be warped when they are new due to bad assembly or damage and very in-efficient.
See the Andrews Channel Master dishes on the
fixed dishes page and
motorised dishes page
for very high quality resin type perfect shaped dish products.
Matched feedhorns can pull in more signal than better LNBs. See below.
Feedhorns.
A normal 40 mm clamp LNB has an integral offset feedhorn for offset dishes like the
Triax dishes (see offset dishes on the
dishes page )
A Prime focus dish like the Unicorn (see Unicorn prime focus dishes on one of the
motorised dishes pages
- not the Channel Master which is an offset) should have its own feedhorn with "scalar rings" on one side and a
C120 flange on the other. See the prime focus feedhorns shown on the
LNB page
i.e. the Universal Feed and the Invacom feed, here you should use the flange LNB which fits the Prime
Focus feed. If a prime focus dish does not have a proper feedhorn then it should have one.
The scalar rings on a prime focus feedhorn are a very important part of the design.
The feedhorn should really be designed and made by the dish manufacturer for a perfect match
but if this is not known or possible, fit a the
"universal feedhorn" on the LNB page This will be the
best match possible. This kit only requires you to have the 3 feed support arms. The boss etc
is all in the kit.
The Channel Master offset feedhorn.
We have supplied this feed to customers who have found it made a worthwhile improvement.
If an LNB feed is not a perfect match, like a standard 40mm clamp LNB, it may illuminate (say) 1.1m
of a 1.2m dish. (less signal) OR, It may (try to) illuminate 1.3m of dish. This will cause infrared
(noise) to be picked up round the edges. The result is a poor signal to noise ratio. (poor picture)
Feedback from customers suggest that the matched feed on a Channel Master 1.2 as far west as Belfast
brought in all of Sirius. Before it was fitted this was not possible. More feedback suggested it can
make a difference in southern Spain For Sky TV and the BBC on a 1.8m dish and on the 2.4m
Channel Master from the Spanish offshore islands.
Receiver sensitivity.
This has only a very small effect on the signal. Most CI and free to air receivers are sensitive anyway.
Some Sky digiboxes, howver, do not have particularily sensitive tuners. Not a problem in the UK but
in Spain a sensitive Sky digibox can help a little. The
Pace 430 is about the best from the
current choice of digiboxes.
Better LNBs.
There is no way of guaranteeing that a better LNB will make a noticeable improvement as
better LNBs only have a small effect on the signal. Bigger dishes are a better option.
To conclude,
"Dish area is everything". Other small gains are possible but they are small.
Large increases in signal are possible in all weathers with bigger dishes.
A large gain can be made if a dish is found to be warped and then corrected.
More efficient dishes provide gains but not as much as manufacturers claim.
(A more efficient dish might have the effect of being as good as a dish 1.0cm diameter bigger
but not the sort of silly claims some manufacturers (or dealers) make.)
Small gains are possible with matched feedhorns
Very small gains might be possible with better LNBs or more sensitive tuners but they may be
too small to be significant
If trees are in the way, the signal will not get through them, however, if they are on the fringe
of being in the way - maybe only a thin band of branches and leaves with a good proportion of the
signal actually getting through, a bigger dish will collect more signal and work much better.
Better LNBs can producing less signal.
This is a very common question.
The important point here is that only a higher signal to noise ratio matters not the signal level.
A high output LNB is good for driving a signal down a long cable (e.g. over 40m)
But a high signal to noise ratio pulls in weaker signals.
If you are looking at the meter reading in your receiver THAT TELLS YOU NOTHING AT ALL
as far as this particular question is concerned.
It only shows you the total signal and not the difference between the signal and the noise.
A poor 0.9dB (but high output) LNB on a short cable (not much attenuation) can produce
a large reading on a signal strength meter.
A low output LNB (like an excellent 0.3dB Invacom) on a longer cable can show a low
signal on a signal strength meter.
So what?!! it has nothing at all to do with the ability to pull in a weak channel - nothing at all.
At a technical level, if you draw a graph with a horizontal line representing the signal
and a lower horizontal line representing the noise, the meter is simply showing the level of the
top line. With a high output LNB on a short cable the two lines move up equally BUT the height
difference between the two lines does not alter. With a low output LNB on a longer cable the two lines
move down equally BUT the height difference between them again does not alter. With a lower noise
LNB or bigger dish the height difference between the two lines INCREASES - we say there
is a better SIGNAL TO NOISE RATIO. A signal strength meter does not show that.
Anyone who says it does, probably has a no technical background in electronics. It is like
saying that the signal to noise ratio of a Hi Fi system is better if you turn up the volume.
Your ears would be equivalent to the signal strength meter and this statement would be
total rubbish as well - but it is an interesting, accurate analogy.
The only test is to check out the capability of pulling in weak channels - do not use the meter
for camparing LNBs. The meter is designed to help to locate the satellite accurately and
not to test the LNB.
QUESTION F2.
Can I get 3 satellites on one fixed dish using a bracket?
e.g. Sky, Astra 1 and the Hotbird.
ANSWER F2.
Questions about getting, 28E, 19E and 13E (i.e. Astra 2 (BBC and Sky) Astra 1 and the Hotbird.)
Up till now, the products to do this have been poor and generally have not worked.
However, Triax have produces a very well engineered 4 LNB system bracket that is matched
to their TD range of dishes. The new bracket is made of aluminium and is extremely well made.
It fits perfecty on the TD range of dishes like the TD 78, 88 or 1.1m
We have tested it on the Triax TD 78cm dish. In Newcastle, perfect results were
obtained from 28E , 19E and 13E The 4 LNB bracket with LNBs and Diseqc switch can
be seen on the
accessories page
The TD dishes with the 4 LNB bracket with LNBs and Diseqc switch can be seen on the
fixed dishes page
The whole dish kit with recommended receivers can be seen on the
3 or 4 satellite system page
Here are some more details,
Triax perfect fit rigid multi bracket, 4 way Diseqc switch, Wall mount and instructions.
Unlike flexible difficult to set up, universal fit brackets, this is a dream to use as it is
well engineered and designed by Triax for their own TD dishes. We have tested this ourselves.
Using a Lacuna / Wolsey meter, a ground stand and Triax TD 78 with the Multi LNB kit.
They were set up it our testing area. It took 10 minutes to get prefect results from all
3 satellites including setting up the stand and dish! (Testing was done with the Fortec
star 5100 receiver) Location - Newcastle - UK 20 degree look angle means that on one dish,
Astra 2 (28E), Astra 1 (19E) and Hotbird (13E) can be received.
Narrow feedhorn LNBs are used so that satellites that are only 3 degrees apart can be received
if required. To summarize, it is possible to receive from Astra 2 to the Hotbird on one fixed dish.
(Could also be used for other combinations of satellites)
Also note that on the
mutibracket page there is a twin option so that a twin LNB can be put in
the 28E position on the bracket so that a Sky Digital can be used as well as a CI receiver.
Here is an e-mail with photos from a
customer, 20th April 07.
I have some interesting photos which you might like. When I was making the arrangement
to get them 3 degrees apart, it was a most interesting exercise! It was, however, well
worth the effort. I have 13, 16, 19.2 and 23.5E all coming in strongly.
James in Brigg, North Lincolnshire.
Our comments - James has done a good job here. He has even made a
small modification. Notice the aluminum bar along the top of the LNBs to
improve rigidity.
QUESTION F3.
Will the Triax Multibracket for 28E, 19E and 13E work in France?
ANSWER F3.
See the
3 or 4 satellite system page (There is no issue
in the UK where the bracket works fine on an 80cm dish. - although in the
north a 90 is recommended) To receive Sky / 28E in France you need a 60cm in the North,
80cm by the time you get to Paris and a 90cm in the south and south west.
(We quote dish sizes to receive the lowest power channels like the BBC although smaller dishes
will work on a % of the channels but not the lowest power.) Astra and Hotbird are powerful
in France and probably only need a 60 for either. Using a 90cm dish and multibracket in the south
is then a problem as you are sharing the signal between 3 satellites and there is therefore a
drop in signal of maybe 3 to 6 dBs on LNBs not in the centre of the boom arm. (centred on 19E,
the 28E LNB is off-centre). It therefore follows that a bigger dish is needed to make up for
losses in a lower signal areas like France etc. A solution, in theory, might be the Triax 1.1m
dish which is also compatible with the multibracket but we have had no sales of that type
and hence no feedback from customers to confirm it works well in that area.
QUESTION F4.
When would you advise the use of a "monoblock type"
product for a two satellite fixed dish system?
ANSWER F4
We wouldn't. It is a universal fit product and we prefer to use perfect fit products
where the bracket is made by the same company that made the dish. One is designed for the other.
Also if you have a fault, the whole block has to be changed. With two neat LNBs, the
fault can be narrowed down to an LNB or switch and just that part needs to be changed.
See 6 degree kits on our
LNB page
QUESTION F7
Can you supply more information on the satellite meters you sell?
ANSWER F7
The are a number of satellite finder meters available. See,
the meters (install) page
The Satbleeper (makes a tone. Works with satellites that have analogue AND digital transponders)
Fine for setting up Astra 1 and the Hotbird. Not suitable for Sky Digital 28E
The Satellite Finder kit. Works with satellites that have analogue AND digital transponders)
Fine for setting up Astra 1 and the Hotbird. Not suitable for Sky Digital 28E
Includes a compass, battery box, instructions and case.
The Digisat meters work on fully digital satellites like Sky Digital at 28E. also work on
all other digital satellites. Ideal for setting up a motorised or fixed dish system
Produce a audible tone & an LCD visual meter reading of signal strength. The "Pro" also offers
Diseqc switch testing and will check both LNBs at once in a 2 satellite Diseqc system.
Excellent meters & great value for money. Also very sensitive for detecting weak signals.
The Wolsey Lacuna meters. Installers tools. Identifies 21 satellites. Digital read out.
Built in battery. Charger included. Robust design. Carry case included. Ideal for setting
up a motorised dish Ideal for finding Sky Digital at 28 East Ideal for finding many other satellites.
RV, Motorhomes and caravaners please note,
There are two types of customer,
1. A customer buying a satellite system for their home intending to fit it themselves.
This type of customer don’t mind spending an hour or so fiddling around with a sub £40
budget satellite meter as they know it is a one-off install and it is worth saving the
money and putting up with the inconvenience of a budget meter.
2. Professional installers and caravan users. These people want to set up real fast and
once assembled, a professional meter (at around £260) takes only a few minutes to find the
satellite. Caravan users can set up and get on with there holiday without the frustration
of all the trial and error searching needed with budget meters.
Note. Some caravan users prefer not to take this advice and take only the budget meter.
A far proportion come back to us after their holiday with comments like
“yes you were right. – not going through that again – send me a decent meter”.
Also read the next question.
QUESTION F8
I do not know anything about tuning satellite systems and am
tired of waiting for engineers to come out and do it for me.
That is why I wish to buy a digital sat finder, but at the same
time I do not want to pay an arm and a leg for one. Is the Digisat
Pro any good or can you recommend something else. I need to take
into account that I may need to use it overseas in Europe.
ANSWER F8
For the price it is excellent. It works on all satellites including
fully digital (most low price meters will not and it gives signal strength
on a digital read out and a tone provides signal strength info as well.)
It also has other useful features but it cannot identify the satellite.
You have to check the TV to see if you are on the satellite you are looking for.
i.e. have a pre-tuned channel ready and see if it is there. If not try another satellite.
With experience it is possible to know which satellite is which just from signal
strengths as you learn that 19E and 13E are the two very powerful ones and so 28E
for example is just to the left of them ..... etc.
The Wolsey Lacuna meter at identifies the satellite. It will say things like
28E found or 13E found. It identifies many satellites and gives signal strengths.
However, it is more expensive. Also read the previous question above.
MOTORISED DISH QUESTIONS
QUESTION M1
Why do you not recommend or sell Diseqc Motors?
ANSWER M1
This is a development where digital receivers now contain software to control a
Diseqc motor (right hand side in photo) rather
than a hardware positioner board to control a standard 36V motor (left hand side in photo) motor.
The problems with Diseqc motors and why the "V box" (link to V Box below) is so necessary with larger dishes.
Diseqc is a new development where digital receivers now contain software to control a Diseqc motor rather
than a five amp hardware positioner board to control a standard motor. The motor control works digitally
down the coax signal lead and a 4-wire control system is not required. Also the concept has become an
industry standard. Sounds good so far but what are the drawbacks?
1. Diseqc motors have all been lightweight universal fit motors with a
secondary rotating pole that the dish clamps to. They are not designed for a particular dish and they do
not properly bolt onto the back of a dish. Slippage can occur in high winds at the secondary rotating fixing.
2. The coaxial cable is designed to carry the signal from the LNB to the
satellite receiver. It is also designed to provide power to the LNB. The satellite receiver provides about
500 to 600 mA (0.6A) to power the LNB. Typically an LNB might draw about 300 mA. This leaves 200 to 300mA
(0.3A) to power up a Diseqc motor. Clearly a proper hardware (4 wire control system) positioner which
can provide up to (typically) 3 to 5 amps is a far better system as it can drive better bigger, stronger,
quicker motors. With 300mA a Diseqc motor must be very small. The only way a very small motor can move
a dish is by putting a large gearbox on the end of the motor to provide "leverage". This means that
a Diseqc motor moves very slowly from one satellite to another due to the large amount of gearing.
Small motors & secondary thinner rotating poles which the dish can slip on are far from ideal for use
with even larger dishes (e.g. 1.0m+ or 90cm + in exposed locations.). Storm force winds in the UK can
provide serious wind loads on a motorised dish. You really do not want to be worrying about whether the
dish is going to come down every time it is windy.
Our opinion of a recent conversation,
I was talking to another dealer the other day. He said he fits a Diseqc motor to the Channel
Master 1.2m dish face. The Channel Master is a heavy dish and the wind loads on a 1.2 can be massive.
In addition, this Channel Master dish is available with a wonderful heavy duty Channel Master
polar mount and actuator (or the big 15 Kg 1224 Supermount H to H motor. See our motorised dishes page.
link below) and yet this dealer fits a (i.e small - usually 3 Kg) universal fit secondary rotating
pole Diseqc motor to this excellent 1.2m dish face!!! It is like ordering a 6.5 litre Rolls Royce
from a dealer and saying "will you please fit a 1 litre Scoda engine before supplying it."
Absolutely crazy! Unfortunately 99% of dealers (and the magazines) are prepared to go down
this route. What we need is a bit of common sense. Why is wind load never considered? Every year we see
numerous insurance claims. We have never seen a Diseqc motor yet that we would put on a dish of over 1.0m
Our recommendations.
For motorised use, The Diseqc motor works fine on steel dishes up to 90cm and aluminium dishes up to 1.0m
in "normal" locations. For larger dishes, or exposed locations (e.g. above the gutter on a high pole
or on the west coastline of Scotland or Ireland,) use a V Box and a 36v motor.
The V Box will enable heavy duty (non Diseqc) motors to be used that move the dish quickly and efficiently
without the dangers of breakage or slippage in high winds. (motors that properly bolt onto the back of a dish)
We never make recommendations without explaining the facts and the facts are based on the laws of Physics.
Hopefully you will realise that we are making sense.
THE V BOX PAGE.
Latest Diseqc motor information 17/01/04
We have tested a new "Cryptic" Diseqc motor last weekend.
The reason for testing it was that for the first time a motor became available
that bolted onto the back of a 1.0m aluminum dish. Being a Diseqc motor
it was expected that it would still be slow (and it is) but this looked
very promising as the big problem of “universal fit – fits nothing properly
and slips in the wind had been overcome. We really wanted this solution
to work for us. It was set up with a Digiquest 8000 and using the USALS
facility all satellites were programmed in. Looked great.
However !
Taking hold of the edge of the dish, (at a distance of about 0.5m from the centre
Of rotation) there was play (movement) of about 7 mm. This was found to be in
The actual motor shaft between the rotating output shaft and the motor body
(i.e. in the gearbox) Looking at the shaft the movement was about 0.5 of a degree.
Now - last Saturday there were moderately winds (not gale force) and the dish
Moved on and off the satellite (no signal) every few seconds. Not a “peaky”
Low power satellite! We were on the Hotbird.
We contacted the supplier and were told that there is a certain amount of play
In all Diseqc motors as they use a worm drive to gear them down.
(small low current motor – large gearbox)
The only time you might get play in a 36 volt motor is when it has been used every
day for many years.
A typical e-mail. We get a few of these. (Dated May 03)
Dear David,
Did not believe in UFOs until recently, when looking through my window I saw a UFO descend
vertically and crash. I soon found it was my 1 metre Channel Master dish, still firmly attached to top of
Jaeger mount, having left behind rest of mount, still on top of pole. If you will examine the
top plate of a 128, you will find it is held on by 4 small countersunk screws. In my case,
wind on dish had managed to tear the heads off inadequate sized screws. If you check 128
you will my point, that screws are too small.
Reply,
The 128 is too small a motor for the Channel Master 1.0m as it only weighs 4 KG
The correct motor (2 types) - both weigh 12 KG each
As shown at www.satellitesuperstore.com/dishes-motors2.htm and our motors page
So nothing you say here is a surprise to us as we tell people that every day of the
week and follow other dealers insurance claims round. You should use the Channel
Master polar mount and 12 inch actuator or the 1224 motor with plate.
Dave
Note. The 128 is a 36 volt motor not a Diseqc motor but it was still too small for this dish!
Update Nov 04.
More recently we have had reports of people putting Diseqc motors on 1.2m dishes!
No wonder our insurance premiums are so high these days!
Update 20th July 06
The Technomate TM-2200
We have tested the latest Technomate Diseqc motor and it is better than any previously tested
It works well with 90cm steel or 1.0m aluminium dishes and it does move faster than
other Diseqc motors. There is no noticeable play in the gearing.
We are therefore pleased to include it in our product range. Only dishes
on our site that fall within the size recommendations just noted are
available from us with this motor. For larger dishes or exposed
locations use a 36V motor.
QUESTION M2
What is a polar mount?
ANSWER M2
This is the part that turns with bearings top and bottom like track rod ends on a car's
steering. An actuator (motor) pushes the polar mount round. Dishes experience high wind
loads and even in normal use are moving back and forwards several times a day. The quality
of the polar mount and motor is extremely important. The design of a horizon to horizon
motor makes them inherently less able to withstand wind loads so it is important
for them to be even bigger / heavier duty than a polar mount for a given dish size.
Providing they are bigger, they are very good. Although most H to H motors go further
east & west than polar mounts, most satellites are within 30 degrees east to 30 degrees
west. Most polar mounts will easily cover this distance. It should by now be obvious
that one (e.g.) system can be very different from another when comparing prices.
You may not find out how poor a polar mount and motor (or H to H motor) is until you
have purchased it. Remember you need to ask the right questions. Its like buying a
car. You might ask the price of a Vauxhall Omega. There is a big difference between
a base model and the Omega Elite. About £15000 worth of difference! Some customers
however are not even as knowledgeable as this. They say "How much is a motorised system?
Its like saying how much is a car? Which car? Specify every item before comparing prices.
Become knowledgeable before you part with your money. Quality motorised systems
start at about £400 + fitting . In particular avoid after-market universal fit
polar mounts (or H to H motors) where the rotating part is a NARROW pole which the
dish clamps to. The motor should be designed for the dish and bolted to the back of
it. Usually this is because the motor and dish are made by the same manufacturer.
Or a motor manufacturer has designed a motor for a particular dish. Universal fit
usually means many compromises have been made. You cannot compromise where gale
force winds are concerned.
QUESTION M3
(See also question M7 below - more details in the answer.)
Note - this question deals with the difference between a
polar mount and H to H motor.
Hi there !
Many thanks for sending me your Sat Video (part 1) this week.
(Ordered Tuesday lunchtime, delivered first thing Thursday morning.)
I enjoyed watching it (twice so far, to check on particular
points !) and found it very informative. I have a couple of
questions about motorising that I hope you can answer for me
(I want to make sure I spend my cash wisely !)
What are the significant differences between a Jaeger 90,
a "Silent Gold 99", a "Silent Gold 100" and the SMR 128 ?
They all seem to be about the same price - but what's the
difference and what's the best one to buy ? (If it's better
to buy a H-H rather than a Polar Mount and Actuator -
another good question !)
From my back garden I reckon I should see sats in a 75 degree
arc (from 30 East to 45 West) - what length of actuator arm is
needed on a 80 cm dish to cover this? I've tried guessing at
the maths and think that the standard 8 inch jack would only
give me about a 60 degree range - is that correct?
I guess from an upgrade point of view it's better to buy
something like the Jaeger 128 H-H now (to use on my Lenson
80 cm) because it could handle a future upgrade to a
1.2 m offset/prime focus - is that a reasonable supposition ?
I hope you don't mind these questions !
Thanks again for the video and catalogue,
Nick
ANSWER M3
Dear Nick.
The 90U and the 99 are the same. The 100 and the 128 are the same. The video explains
that it's better to bolt the motor onto the dish than onto a secondary rotating pole.
i.e. 128 / 100 better (update - July 05 now the new 99FG is a bolt on motor) method of
fixing. Secondary poles can cause slippage in high winds. Polar mounts are a little
less expensive and cheaper to fix in the future. To fix an H to H usually you have
to replace the whole motor. You loose all is the dish settings. An 6 inch actuator
costs £35 and can be changed without removing the polar mount. Dish settings don't change.
Good polar mounts (including the Lenson) are inherently stronger than H to H motors of
the same size as the actuator pushes some distance out from the centre. The actuator is
also therefore better able to resist high winds than gears in the middle.
(lever law) although with a good (strong) H to H like a 128 (or 99FG) there is not much
difference. (Also when you look at the massive 1224 Supermount H to H motor, it is so
heavy duty and over-rated it is stonger than many medium duty polar mounts!)
H to H motors go further than polar mounts, + or - 70 degrees. Polar mounts should go
from 45 east to 45 west. (The length of the actuator is misunderstood relating to travel.
If the polar mount was pushed at, say, 3 inches from the rotating centre, the dish would
travel further than if it was pushed at 6 inches from centre, each for the same
actuator travel. Hence it's the total design of the polar mount that determines travel,
not just the stroke of the actuator. Many people put too large an actuator on their
dish when a smaller one will actually go so far that the dish would foul itself
before the actuator was fully extended.) I don't agree that a 128 will take a 1.2m
dish even if the manufacturer says so. You can't mess with the wind. We have
seen too many broken small motors on 1.2m dishes to believe over optimistic manufactures
claims. Over engineering is best (which is why our wall mounts are so good) For a 1.2m
use the superb Jaeger 1224 H to H Supermount motor (see video) (£179..Hang the expense -
worth every penny) I use a 1224 on my Channel Master 1.2m dish. It's just the best motor
available for dishes up to 1.5m. See
the motors page It can also be adapted to smaller
dishes if you want the upgrade capability in the future. Best to watch the video again now!
Best wishes
(See also question M7 below - more details in the answer.)
Dave.
QUESTION M4
Some companies include a free wall mount with a
motorised system. Why don't you?
ANSWER M4
This is a Safety Issue. If you were buying a car and a manufacturer offered a few pounds off
because it had a free braking system would you buy it? So - the cheapest possible parts were
used and there was a chance it would fail and cause an accident. BUT IT IS FREE!
It is very difficult to make customers understand that with some things in life,
PRICE IS NOT AN ISSUE, ONLY QUALITY IS. That is why for over 15 years we have designed
and manufactured our own fully welded heavy duty wall mounts and ground stands.
That is why, whilst we have been out to many insurance claims over the years
and they have always been caused by other peoples wall mounts breaking.
Like the dish that fell on top of the car in the drive in high winds. They were lucky!
It did not fall on a person. We have yet to see a decent commercially made wall mount,
Some wall mounts are compromised by being flat pack able. Ours are heavy duty and held onto
the wall by 3 times as many bolts as most. Being fully welded they are bigger to ship,
but that is not important. Most wall mounts dealers use are T and K brackets.
(Because they do not have their own manufacturing resources and that is all they can get.)
These are designed for Aerials not satellite dishes. Dishes are a much bigger sail in the
wind. If you see a free wall mount, or one using 3 bolts to hold it up (ours use 10+)
or thin narrow metal then beware. We keep samples to show callers. All of the samples
have sheared in the wind and have been collected from insurance claims. It's up to you.
Our mounts are on our
the wall mounts and ground stands page.
We do not know whether in your situation you need a south facing mount, a mount with
a 2m pole to get the dish above the gutter,
or a ground stand. Therefore we have a
page dedicated to this requirement. All of the mounts are big heavy duty units.
QUESTION M5
Can I put Sky Digital all on the one motorised dish
as my CI motorised receiver?
ANSWER M5
Yes you can, using a twin output LNB and a second cable. BUT, is more flexible to have
2 dishes as then one channel from say Sky can be watched in one room and a different
channel in another. Or record one channel (copyright permitting) and watch another.
Also all of your eggs are then not in one basket. A fault on one system and the other
still works. Since the Sky mini dish is very small it is not easy to notice. Yes
Planning permission is needed. You could just apply for permission.(but not doing so is not exactly
a hanging offence. IF they notice a second dish, the council ask you to either apply for
permission or take one dish down and anyway give you a month to decide.
At that point you can switch to plan B. Plan B - All on the one dish requires
a twin LNB and again 2 cables. Each cable (again) goes to each receiver. There are many
ways to connect the two receivers to the TV. One way is to connect the Digigox to
AV 1 with a scart lead. Then connect the motorised to AV2 on a second scart lead.
QUESTION M6
You seem to recommend the Manhattan 500, 550 and Topfield 3000
receiver for motorised use. What makes them so good compared
to other receivers on the market?
ANSWER M6
Apart from the fact that they have a built in hardware 5 amp, 36 volt positioner to
drive heavy duty motors, they also have proper motorised navigation in their
user menus. Let us explain what this means and why it is far better than the
menus in most receivers. .
Many receivers are designed for the fixed dish use but dealers adapt them for
motorised use by supplying them with motorised dishes etc. Receivers like the
Humax range, Palcom, Samsung, Force, and many others are primarily
fixed dish receivers. Indeed they are very good receivers but not ideal for
motorised use. They have one continuous list of channels and so the user is
supposed to remember (e.g.) that channel 1351 is the last channel on one
satellite and that 1352 starts the next satellite. It is a continuous list of channels.
There is no satellite button on the handset, there is no list of satellites in the on-screen
menus. Just one long list without detailing which satellite is which. You
have to either write down the break points or remember them. If you want to
add satellites they go on the end of the list whatever "satellite" you are
trying to add them to.
But, the Manhattan and Topfield receivers are different. On the handset there
IS a satellite
button. When the user presses it, a list of satellites appears on the
screen. The user can then scroll up or down and select the satellite they want to
go to. On arriving at that satellite, the channels start at channel number 1 and
go up to the number of channels on that satellite. (Not one continuous list)
THIS IS PROPER MOTORISED NAVIGATION because the receiver was
designed as a motorised receiver at the outset (and has a built in positioner). It
is only when you own a motorised receiver that you realize the benefits in
terms of ease of use of this type of user menu structure. Adding channels to a
particular satellite puts them in the list allocated to that satellite.
Also we like in our programming option to make sure that channel 1 on every satellite
is an unscrambled free to air channel to make for easy satellite location.
With a Humax for example, we might have to make channel 873 a free
channel as that might be the first channel on (say) Sirius at 5 degrees east.
BUT since there is no list of satellites you have to know that Sirius is (e.g.)
from Channels 873 to 951. Not very satisfactory. Sometimes customers buy the
Humax as they like the idea of a built in Multi CAM but now just by adding a
Dragon CAM to a Topfield or Manhattan, switching scrambling systems is just as
easy without having to buy all the different CAM types.
see
The Manhattan page, or
The Topfield page, or
The CAMs page.
The Manhattan 500 and 550 receivers have some useful extra features like blind search,
built in IRDETO CAM, over the air upgrades, the 550 has hard drive options for
perfect picture digital recordings.
QUESTION M7
Which satellites can be seen from the UK?
ANSWER M7
(See also question M3 above - more details in the answer.)
Satellites are in the "Clark" belt in geostationary orbit above the equator.
From the UK we see this as an arc in the southern sky.
The centre of this arc is approximately zero degrees. (It is exactly zero degrees
if you are on the Greenwich meridian which is a longitudinal line through the
Greenwich observatory in London.) Realistically we can see about 70 degrees east
of due south and 70 degrees west of due south before our horizon gets in the way.
So really the maximum arc we can see in the southern sky is about 140 degrees with
due south in the middle. With a motorised dish and a good horizon to horizon motor
like the 99g, F99G and standard 1224 a span of 70 east to 70 west is possible providing
a clear line of site is available. The signal comes in at about 22 to 24 degrees to
the horizontal in the centre of the arc, but at the apex of the arc at say 70E or 70W
it could be around 5 degrees to the horizontal so trees buildings and hedges even in
the distance could be in the way. Here in Europe we talk about satellites at 10E of
south or 30W of south but in the US for example, they will start to see satellites in
the mid Atlantic which will be about 70west and as you cross America to the west coast,
then into the Pacific, you would finally see up to 150 west from the west coast of America.
It follows that any satellites from 70 west onwards are below our western horizon.
A polar mount and actuator can usually span about 45 east to 45 west. With this type
of motor you can, if you wish, "pinch" a bit from one side to give to the other.
e.g 55 west to 35 east. The 1224 EL motor will go from 70E to about 30W as the inclined
orbit jack will restrict movement to the west. Most channels of interest are within 30E
to 30W anyway so all motors are fine and there are other factors to do with strength and
wind load that are more important to a motors design than whether it will go to
the extremes of the arc where there is little of interest anyway.
(See also question M3 above - more details in the answer.)
3/4 satellites on 1 fixed dish. Advice and feedback.
see
3/4 LNB systems and brackets
Advice - Using a Sky box as well.
If you look at the twin LNB option above at you will see this issue is dealt with.
i.e. Using a twin LNB in the 28E position, you could have the twin and 2 single
LNBs on 28E, 19E and 13E
Using the FTA / CI receiver on one output of the twin and the 2 single LNBs
all three satellites will then work on this receiver.
The second output of the twin could go to the Sky Digibox
Alternatively, without the twin option, the FTA / CI receiver could connect to 2 satellites,
19E and 13E. Then the Digibox to the 28E LNB
Either way, two cables must be brought into the house for the 2 receivers.
Advice - Using all four LNBs,
The Triax multisat dish kit can be used on any part of the Sky but in the UK the
common satellites to point it at are 28E, 19E and 13E (or 28E, 19E and 16E or 28E, 16E and 13E
but for these two options a 90cm dish is needed as 16E is a lower power satellite than the other
three satellites) We used to say you cannot get 28E, 19E, 16E and 13E as, even with narrow feed LNBs
you cannot get 3 satellites that are only 3 degrees apart. The narrow feed LNBs can
(unlike standard LNBs) get close enough together to get 19E and 16E or 16E and 13E - here
the LNBs must touch each other to do this. But to get 19E, 16E and 13E, with all three LNBs
touching each other, they are not close enough together. To put it another way, if you set up
one LNB on 19E and another LNB on 13E, a third LNB on 16E will not fit between the other two LNBs.
Therefore, used in this part of the sky for these satellites we used to say that three LNBs would be
used on 28, 19E and 13E and the fourth LNB would be a spare (it is part of the kit). Recently our engineer
did a little experiment. We should point out, however that this would invalidate the warrantee on three
of the LNBs! With a craft knife he shaved some plastic off the sides of the narrow feed LNBs to make
them narrower. The plastic is quite thick and so this is possible without going right through the casing.
He was then able to get 28E, 19E, 16E and 13E perfectly on a 90cm Triax dish.
Up to you!
Advice - using the Triax Multibracket in France.
(This is NOT an issue in the UK where the bracket works fine on an 80cm dish. - although in the
north a 90 is recommended)
To get Sky / 28E in France you need a 60cm in the North, 80cm by the time you get to Paris
and a 90cm in the south and south west.
(We quote dish sizes to receive the lowest power channels like the BBC although smaller dishes
will work on a % of the channels but not the lowest power.)
Astra and Hotbird are powerful in France and probably only need a 60 for either.
So using a 90cm dish and multibracket in the south is then a problem as you are sharing
the signal between 3 satellites and there is therefore a drop in signal of maybe 3 to 6 dBs
on LNBs not in the centre of the boom arm. (centred on 19E, the 28E LNB is off-centre)
It therefore follows that a bigger dish is needed to make up for losses in a lower signal areas like France etc.
A solution, in theory, might be the Triax 1.1m dish which is also compatible with the multibracket
but we have had no sales of that type and hence no feedback from customers to confirm it works well in that area.
Also note that on the mutibracket page there is a twin option so that a twin LNB can be put in the 28E position
on the bracket so that a Sky Digital can be used as well as a CI receiver.
Advice - using the Triax Multibracket in Spain.
CUSTOMER FEEDBACK Feb 07.
Good morning,
Having spent a lot of time visiting your site, I would like to pass on some information to you regarding an
installation that I have finally sorted out.
I live on the Costa Brava in the town of Roses; and for some time wanted to view Astra 1 and 2
using the same dish- despite attempting a motorised system and two separate dishes, I was never
able to see both the Spanish Digital + system on Astra 1 and the FTA channels on Astra 2 well enough.
So I purchased a Triax 110cm dish, a multi lnb bracket, and a VisionNet FCIS 7000 reciever. I now have
over 300 FTA channels on Astra 2, all the Spanish system, and the added bonus of all the new Spanish
freeview system. It has a taken a little bit of patience, but as now I have 95% signal quality on
the FTA channels on Astra 2 ( in fact, better than Astra 1 at about 75-80%), I am more than happy.
I know that you have requested any feedback regarding Triax and their multi-lnb bracket; well, please
advise all those who are thinking about purchasing or installing, that here in northeast Spain, the
results are spectacular.
Thank you for your time, keep up the good work.
Regards,
Patrick
Feedback from Ireland
Feedback. I got a 90cm Triax Dish, Diseqc switch and multi-arm bracket from you last year
and it is working a dream in Dublin - I use 3 of the LNBs for Hotbird, Astra 1 and Astra
2/Eurobird.
By the way, when setting up the multi-arm I found that the maximum 'tilt' of the arm was
quite limited and was insufficient to get a good signal from the 3 satellites.
Must be the vertical angles in Dublin! I had to do a bit of cutting/scraping to
increase the tilt but it works great now (~80-90 signal from Astra 1 & Hotbird
and over 90% with Astra 2). Regards, Dominic
Advice - using the Triax Multibracket with other dishes.
Over the last 10 years we have tried a number of universal 20 degree kits and none of them worked
properly - producing very low signal on all satellites - often flexible plastic and poorly made.
In 2005 Triax introduced the multibracket kit for the range of TD dishes.
We were skeptical but we tested it and it worked well.
Please note the following,
The Triax Mulibracket.
It is a precision engineered aluminum extrusion design.
It fits the Triax Boom arm and not other arms.
The design program was to match the arm to the dish so that they work properly together.
1000s sold and customers know they work
It may work properly on other dishes and will not fit anyway.
That is not to say that if you put your mind to a modification to make
if fit other dishes that this could not be done. Anything can be achieved
with a little work and skill but we certainly cannot comment on whether
a DIY mod will provide good results.
BUT
After 6 months of work and testing we have adapted it to our clear transparent 85cm
dish and it works very well. This modified unit is now available and good feedback
has come in from users. See
2, 3 or 4 satellites on 1 fixed dish
Problems of using more than one diseqc switch
with multiple LNBs
One our web site you will find 2, 3 and 4 LNBs on one fixed dish
See
2, 3 or 4 satellites on 1 fixed dish
You will also find options for the fitting of a twin or quad LNB as a substitution
with ONE of the 3 or 4 LNBs so that a popular satellite can go to several receivers.
e.g. putting a twin or quad in the 28E position so that a Sky digibox or Sky + can
be connected as well as the CI receiver to that LNB That means the CI receiver and the
Sky box both are connected to 28E but the CI receiver is also connected to other
satellites through ONE diseqc switch.
You will not find on our site 2.3 or 4 satellite kits with twin or quad LNBs and
more than one diseqc switch to either two receivers or a twin tuner receiver.
REASON.
Whilst it should all work in theory, in practice
(depending on the combination of switch positions) you can get no signal on a
satellite when it should all work. This is because twin LNBs and Quad LNB should
be fully connected to work properly. It may be OK to connect to two outputs of a quad
but you have to experiment to find out which two. With a twin, one side has a good
connection to the internal power supply circuit and the other is almost like a passive
device and relies on power from the second receiver to work properly
If you connect two or more diseqc switches, they take power away from some of the
outputs of the twin or quad LNBs (depending on the switching at the time) and
things go wrong.
IS THERE A SOLUTION?
Yes there is - a new solution - but quite expensive. It will be on our site soon as
an option on all of the twin tuner receiver pages eventually but see it at
multiswitches
The 9 in and 6 out and the 17 in an 6 out ...etc. This is a product designed to
do the job. Quatro LNBs must be used but all the switching is done inside the unit
and there are no power issues
